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Monday, August 01, 2005
The Wonder Button
As the date that the government has set for the destruction of the Jewish communities of the Gaza Strip and Northern Samaria approaches, the obligation to know exactly what this entails in terms of violating commandments becomes greater. I found an online copy of Rabbi Shaul Bar-Ilan's treatise Kaftor HaPele (The Wonder Button). Here Rabbi Bar Ilan elaborates on the multitude of commandments that will be violated by a soldier that takes part in the expulsion. It's a lot more than I would have thought. Especially interesting is the reason why the treatise is called "Kaftor HaPele". In short, this is a must read for all G-d fearing Jews.
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12 comments:
As I'm sure you're aware of, there's this wonderful concept in Judaism called the "Machloket". Disagreement and logical arguments color the Gemara and line the Tanach, Shas, etc. The greats debates of Rambam and Ramban, etc. Where am I getting in this diatribe? There are many many Rabbis who have said that it is the halchic obligation of a soldier to obey orders, etc. And, they have many halachic sources to back that up. See Rabbi Moshe Finestein and many other prominent contemporary Rabbis, eg, Rabbi Soloveitchik, Rabbi Blau, Rabbi Lamm, Rabbi Charlop, etc.
So, there are many that would say that Rabbi Bar-Ilan is wrong. Many different interpretations out there. Haven't heard the Rav Tzva'i quoting this Rabbi yet. Oh, but wait! He belongs to "The Man", so he can't really voice his real halachic opinions. Eventhough, that's like his job and stuff. In short all G-d fearing Jews should learn all the opinions out there, and make an informed decision based on what they know. They should also ask their local orthodox Rabbi. So, thanks Rabbi, but I'll look at other sources too. And, I'm not about to call any soldier who helps carry out the kitnatkut a non G-d fearing Jew or some-one who is violating halacha.
-OC
OC -
Yes, there is a makhloket. Rabbis Shapira and Eliyahu are the biggest Rabbis of the religious Zionists here in Israel. The YU rabbis that you mentioned, kevodam munach bimkomo, are important rabbis but they are not of the stature of Rabbis Shapiro and Eliyahu, and they would probably be the first to admit this. Rabbis Moshe Feinstein zt"l and JB Soloveitchik zt"l were gedolei hador but they passed away years ago and never dealt with the matter at hand, which is very different from Yamit.
What's more, I don't know why you put words in my mouth? I did not write "any soldier who helps carry out the kitnatkut a non G-d fearing Jew or some-one who is violating halacha." I did write "this is a must read for all G-d fearing Jews." That is a very big difference. BTW, did you read it?
This matter at hand was something that was and has been contended with and discussed since the day the 1967 war ended. As I recall, Rabbi Finestein and Rabbi Soloveitchik were both alive then. So, their halachic opinions are extremely relevant and will continue to be relevant, regardless, until time immemorium. And, last time I checked halacha doesn't change from one minute to the next. Why, I believe Rabbi Bar Ilan quotes things that are thousands of years old. Can I say they're not relevant b/c these halachic quotations "never dealt with the matter at hand"? C'mon. It's rediculous to say that their opinions are less relevant b/c they're not alive now. Halacha is halacha. The halachic matters of war, goverment, and obeying orders are as relevant now as they have been since the dawn of Judaism. Just b/c the matter at hand has changed doesn't change the issues involved. It's the interpretations that matter.
Just because the other Rabbis that I mentioned may not be of the "stature" of the Rabbis you mentioned also does not make their halachic opinions and interpretations any less valid. Starting to play a very dangerous game when we start saying things like that. Rabbi Lamm is not only one of the most prominent Rabbis in YU's illustrious history. He is also one of the most prominent and respected Rabbis in the United States. So, I believe that his halachic opinions and edicts are very much valid and no less valid than Rabbi Shapira and Rabbi Eliyahu. Again, as I mentioned, it's all a matter of who you go by.
I did not put words into your mouth. That's impossible when you're writing on a computer. All kidding aside, I wasn't assuming anything. However, by writing what you did, it is may be very easy for someone to infer that that's what you meant when you said that. By writing, "Here Rabbi Bar Ilan elaborates on the multitude of commandments that will be violated by a soldier that takes part in the expulsion." you are infering that those soldiers that will be taking part in the hitnatkut (including members of my family) as some-one who is violating halacha. I take that very seriously. If that's not what you meant then you should very much specify that.
I like your blog. I really do. I like that you let everyone voice their opinion. I don't want to disrespect you in any way. However, with the vile things being wrote about these precious and amazing soldiers lately, every word written about them will be read into and dissected. It's sad yet real.
-OC
OC -
Let's take the case of Rabbi Soloveitchik. After the famous "panel discussion" where Rabbi Blau tried to support his position by quoting RJS, Rabbi Avraham Yaakov Rokach of Chicago responded with the following:
'Dear Sir:
Rabbis Lamm, Charlop, and Blau are entitled to their opinion, a da'at yahid [minority opinion]. However, it is wrong for Rabbi Blau to imply that Rav Yosef Dov Soloveitchik ZT"L would have agreed with him. Having been privileged to know the Rav ZT"L, I sincerely believe that he would have campaigned forcefully and effectively against the uprooting of Jews from their homes in Eretz Yisrael. "Chaval Al DeAvdin VeLo Mishtakchin." "Zechuso Yagen Aleinu VeAl Kal Yisrael."'
(BTW, here's an opportunity to wish the Rokach and Dauber families Mazal Tov on the upcoming marriage of their children.)
In any case, we clearly see that what RJS would say today is in dispute. The halacha has not changed, but each situation is different, and has to be judged accordingly.
OC-
Another example is the opinion of Rabbi Ovadiah Yosef. ROY in principle supports giving up land in order to secure true peace. However, he strongly opposes hitnatkut as almost everyone agrees that this will worsen and not improve the security situation.
With regards to the soldiers: Your love of our soldiers is quite touching, and you are not alone. I also love our soldiers, being that I was one, my wife was one, and my father was one(wounded in the war of independence), and my sons will probably be soldiers some day. I want the army to remain a Jewish army that I can be proud of, an army that my children can serve in, an army that does not trample upon the Torah. Yes OC, according to my opinion, for what it is worth, Rabbi Bar Ilan is right, and soldiers that want to rely on other opinions should read Rabbi Bar Ilan's article where he deals with the issue of "ase lecha Rav".
VeHaEmet VeHaShalom Ehavu.
OK, this will lead us in circles, and still come to one conclusion. It depends on who you ask, and who you go by. First of all, it is not the place of a Rabbi to decide that something is not halachically valid based on his perceived notion of the security situation. That's not his expertise, and that's definitely not what he should base his decisions on. Halacha and halahic interpretations alone are in his jurisdiction.
Second of all, I'd like to see your statistics and fact sheet for "almost everyone agrees" that this will not improve security. Who's everyone? B/c I've seen and talked to plenty of people, many in the top echilons of the miltary who believe the contrary.
As I've mentioned, I too have a strong military family. My father served as a Marine in Vietnam and served proudly. My husband is an officer, and my father-in-law is also a top officer in the army. So, I think we both are looking at this, hopefully, from the same vantage point.
-OC
OC -
I think that you are correct that this will lead us to arguing in circles, but don't we do it all the time? :-)
With regards to security, read this:
"The government of Israel cannot tell the public that it was unaware of all that was happening right under our noses. Ousted IDF Chief of Staff Moshe (Bogi) Ya'alon's warning that "the disengagement will give terrorism a tailwind" is coming true. Outgoing General Security Services (GSS) director Avi Dichter's warning that Gaza will become South Lebanon and northern Samaria will become Gaza is also coming true. The media, which ignored or buried their warnings, has become as concerned as elements in the security establishment and is beginning to tell the public the terrible truth."
OC, do you need more than the former Chief of Staff and former GSS director?
OK, you're looking at this from the wrong vantage point. The best thing that could happen to Israel's security is that Gaza turn into a total war zone, that Hamas take total control, and that there are no Jews left to be in the way for what's coming. Again, a rhetorical question. Can a person be in two places at once?
-OC
OC,
I still remember Rabin dreaming of how Arafat would take care of the Hamas without Bagatz and without Betzelem. Wishful thinking that never came to fruition. I think the same will be of the scenario that you are dreaming of.
To answer your question, no.
Let the rhetoric flow!
That's not the scenario that I'm thinking of, but thanks for trying. Let's play this game again tomorrow. Moving on to contestant #2 now...
So, before I move onto what I was really theorizing (not wishful thinking), let me ask you a question. How in the name of all good G-d, do you believe that the security situation in Gaza now is in any way effected by 8,000 people living there? How are they preventing the "worst case scenario" everyone's dreaming of from happening now? How would them staying stop kassam rockets from falling on Ashkelon? Wait, they're falling now, even with 8,000 people living in the SOUTH-WEST corner of the strip. How does them living there stop Hamas form operating freely? Wait, they're operating freely now. So, please explain these things to me first.
-OC
The security situation is invertly proportional to the Israeli presence. Before Oslo, Tzahal was patrolling everywhere. The terrorists did not have the infrastructure and the cities of refuge that they enjoy today. There werre no Kassams, almost no ambushes of motorists, and we did not need guards at the entrance to every restaurant and shopping mall.
The idea of disengagement is not only destroying the Jewish settlements, it is also moving the army out of the area! Sharon wants the Egyptian army to prevent the smuggling of weapons into Gaza! What a joke!
The uprooting of Jewish settlements in return for nothing will encourage more terrorism. You do not have to be a general to know that (although Bogi Ayalon did say that).
And again, on a more spiritual level, is the sin of the spies, which we are still suffering from to this very day. But that is the subject for a complete post which will be forthcoming , BS"D.
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